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1. i read somewhere (prolly wikipedia), that in europe, the BFoNV there means “rebel.” so like punkz stitch it on their leather jackets to say that the man can go stick it, like instead of a pirate flag or something, whatever the kids use these days.

   also the neo-nazis use it since they cant use swastikas.

   — midas | @

2. Yeah the Stars and Bars are more incognito. Anyway off topic.

   — MaxPower | @

3. Kudos to you for bringing this up. I know that a lot of white people are afraid to go there. It would be simple to just write this off to the “we can call ourselves what we want, but you can’t” argument or even go all intellectual and do the “we are appropriating a hateful word, sanitizing it, and making our own version because black folks are strong” thing. But, bottom line is that it’s well, complicated.

   Unfortunately, I won’t pretend to speak for all black people (I’m still waiting for some returned phone calls from the three brothas in Vermont before issuing a statement), but I can say from personal experience that there is a difference in usage that seems so innate that only a black person can understand it. I would liken it to when women call each other “bitch,” but I can’t find a historical pre-civil rights record of anyone making a move to “hang that bitch” (unless “nigger” comes right before “bitch”). Not that all black people “get it” and no whites do, but it’s guttural.

   So, my suggestion is for white people to never, ever use “nigger” or “nigga” unless you like taking your life into your own hands or are generating a discussion forum of some type. Meanwhile, for black folks, we’ll have to keep struggling with how to deal with the term (old schoolers hate it, esp. the public use of “nigga” - it was part of the laundry that we kept in-house for so long). For all of us, though, we need to do what you’ve suggested and have a dialogue where all sides put there views out there so that we can get a bit more sanity on issues of race.

   — Conaway Haskins | @

4. What seems to be left out of the discussion is, would anyone want a shirt, designed by Damon Wayans, that says “Nigga” on the front?

   — amy | @

5. chris rock has a hilarious stand-up about “nigger” v. “nigga.” it’s all the education you’ll need.

   Conaway Haskins says old schoolers oppose the word. i have to say that none of the classy black people that i know ever say “nigga” in public. admittedly, i don’t know a ton of black people, but probably more than the average haduken reader?

   this is merely an observation- i’m not suggesting that people with class don’t or shouldn’t use the word. maybe i’ll weigh in on that later….

   — Wolf | @

6. i think dave chappelle has done a lot to satirize the issue. which i think is good, and hilarious. the less offensive and ridiculous something can be made, the less painful it is for everyone. like hopefully we can all get to a point where race or racial comments are never taken seriously. i mean like, i’ve been trying to figure out the “cracka” vs “cracker” conundrum… i think i’m pretty much a cracka

   — Coulie | @

7. Wolf, that’s my point exactly, for we black people, it was always a matter of social class as to the public v. private consideration of the word. My parents generation wouldn’t be caught dead using any iteration in a public context outside of actually being an entertainer, orator (i.e. poet), or critic of the word(s) itself. However, my generation of younger black people (the hip-hop) generation have taken it to a whole other level. Richard Pryor and Dick Gregory really got things started down the road the Rock & Chappelle traveled.

   If our society gets to the point where a black person is attacked as a “nigger” by some white person, and then that black person bursts out laughing, we’ll know that things have truly changed. Now, don’t any of you crackas get any ideas ;)

   — Conaway Haskins | @

8. “If our society gets to the point where a black person is attacked as a “nigger” by some white person, and then that black person bursts out laughing, we’ll know that things have truly changed. ”

   That would be as amazing as if a Muslim were to look at a comic about Muhammed and burst out laughing.

   — RMSzero | @

9. I agree with Conaway, white people should never use the term in any form. Being a white woman in (but not from) a fairly “redneck-ish” small town in Northern Virginia, I hear those words used frequently. Mainly from ignorant hillbillies who proudly have the Confederate flag pinned to the back window of their pick-ups. When ever I question why black people can use the term to each other in the form of endearment, but white people cannot, I think about said hillbillies and question no more.

   As for clothing with a NIGGA logo…….I see this being a big problem. Little white, Mailibu’s Most Wanted type, thug wannabe’s will be getting their asses kicked, thinking they’re looking all “tight” and shit. That’s just my opion.

   All in all, I believe it’s not a smart move on Damon Wayans part.

   — April | @

10. “I see this being a big problem. Little white, Mailibu’s Most Wanted type, thug wannabe’s will be getting their asses kicked, thinking they’re looking all “tight” and shit.”

    i’m having trouble identifying the problem here…
    i kid, i kid.

    — Wolf | @

11. The Virginia Blogger’s Carnival is up at Im Not Emeril. Go now and check out some of Virginia’s other great blogs.

    — I'm Not Emeril | @

12. I just got home from work, poured a short glass and started re-reading some of the Carnival posts. This one stopped me dead in my tracks.

    The innocent little trackback comment I posted this morning looks sooo out of place after the conversation above it.

    — I'm Not Emeril | @

13. I came over here because the post was featured on the blog carnival. I guess I’m old school: nigga/nigger is not an appropriate term under any circumstances to me, by either blacks or whites. Having been on the receiving end of that term when used in a derogatory way, I do not understand young blacks who use it as a term of endearment.

    To me it’s kind of like the Confederate battle flag: that flag has been so compromised by racist groups that I don’t understand why the “heritage, not hate” groups don’t just use another flag. It’s not like they don’t have any other choices. Same with nigger/nigga. There are other words that can be used.

    And I think the use of the word by blacks goes to the deeper problem that blacks don’t want to talk about: internalized oppression. I just don’t see any self-respecting black person using that word.

    — Vivian | @

14. Haha that is ok, no harm no foul.

    — MaxPower | @

15. This is interesting. Sounds like a bunch of white guys need to go on Ophra and discuss the “cracker -vs- cracka” conundrum.

    — Al | @

16. Vivian, you bring up such an excellent point re: internalized oppression. As a white guy, I don’t really feel like I have any right to speak to whether such a thing exists or not. It *seems* to my highly uneducated and removed point of view that there is a lot of interal pressures not to succeed and prosper. Some of my wife’s ten year old students call it “acting white,” which we have all heard before.

    But seriously, how can I even say such a thing? Not being a part of the community and not having any sort of idea of what it is like to actually be black, I can’t really have more than an opinion of what is going on. It is very sad/interesting to me though.

    Also re: confedete battle flag, I agree 100%. I mean we’ve got the Bonnie Blue and the Stars and Bars, both of which I see flown around town quite a bit. In fact I think most people believe the Stars and Bars to be a Revolutionary-era flag.

    Thanks for the comments though!

    — MaxPower | @

17. MaxPower

    I have 45 years of experience being black but even that doesn’t make me an expert on the topic :) I’ve studied a lot about race relations and even co-founded a group that deals with the topic. The issue of internalized oppression is very real, IMHO. (For those who are not familiar, internalized oppression is like the Stockholm Syndrome.) But it manifests itself in ways that you can’t fathom. It is blacks refusing to do business with other blacks because “white is better.” I can’t imagine a white person walking up to another white person and saying “Yo, brother. Can I have a discount?”

    From the outside, you only get a glimpse of how difficult it is to be black in America, especially if you are successful. It’s a painful place to live.

    — Vivian | @

18. Vivian, the internalized oppression thing is where the usage originated. Now, it’s taken a whole new dimension in my mind. But, the “acting white” phenomenon is a perfect example of internalized oppression - unfortunately, it’s up to black folks to solve it. Calling yourself nigger/nigga comes with a price - and lords knows we’re paying it.

    — Conaway Haskins | @

19. maybe it’s like how nerd or geek used to be an insult, but now nerds call each other nerds, in a defiant kind of way. taking ownership of the insult and turning it into a badge of honor???

    obviously many differences but maybe a similar mechanism.

    — midas | @

20. Vivian and everyone,
    Great conversation. I definitely don’t think race is talked about enough. I would like to add a bit of my own perspective on the subject. I am a black man, nearly 20 years younger than Vivian. The generation that my father grew up in is vastly culturally different than the reality in which we live now. As I hear the stories my father and grandfather tell about how they were treated, it is still so very hard grasp what they went through.

    This is an important factor: Young black men like myself will never be able to truly understand but will forever be thankful and respectful to those who lived through pass generations of racial tension and oppression. I would also like to say that some of these older generations still remain bitter and hard-hearted to this day, and unwillingly to forgive and reconcile, they would rather pass on this bitterness and resentment to their children. This is where i believe the “victim mindset” and is born.

    This generation gap is also where I think the issue of nigga v. nigger stems from. My generation hardly has a grasp on what the term “nigger” really means. We can learn about it, be told about it, but until you experience it from another race, regularly and in a derogatory way, its never really grasped. In fact, I don’t think that most if any blacks in my generation even make a mental connection between the two words. They are not even menatally broken down in the same capacity.

    Also, I am a self respecting black man and, like most of my generation, I use the term “nigga” when having fun with my brother and very close friends… all of which are young, black, and have self respect. I know, its hard to understand, but believe me, its even harder to explain.

    I cannot speak for the guys I know but for me, internalized oppression is not something I would consider an issue in my life because of the great spiritual capacity in which I identify myself. Internalized oppression is a huge cultural issue in the black community but I believe its largely due to MUCH bigger issues than the use of the word “nigga”. The “crab in the bucket syndrome” for instance.

    — Eric Murphy | @

21. when i see a seemingly successful black family in a nice restaurant i feel genuinely glad for them and i want to just tell them that it’s so nice to see a black *family* doing well and movin’ on up (like the song), but then i just figure that would come across condescending or arrogant like “amazing! a black married couple who can afford to eat out! welcome to the club of non-poverty-stricken-baby-momma-hope-i-make-it-as-a-balla thug-life.” so i just don’t say anything at all. but i’m still happy for them, but i wish i could encourage them without making it us/them at all, but right or wrong, it is us/them bc that’s what this discussion is all about.

    — Wolf | @

22. Dude I feel the same way, but maybe that is racist? I like how the issue is sooo touchy and cloudy that I don’t even know what is offensive and what is positive. Bleh.

    — MaxPower | @

23. MaxPower and Wolf: the question is would you walk up to a white family and say the same thing? If not, why not? Aren’t there poor whites, too? And not all blacks you see eating out are “moving’ on up.” Did you consider that they may be second or third generation wealthy blacks (yes, they do exist)?

    One of the biggest issues of race relations has to do with the mere fact that we just don’t know each other well enough. Instead, we rely on whatever the media (and our families and our friends) tell us the other race is like. In all truth - we are more alike than we are dissimilar.

    Eric - man, I really don’t know where to start with you. My first instinct was that I’m really glad that you have not had to experience the discrimination that older generations had to. But then I remember what it was like to be 25 - and I distinctly remember that was the age at which I started experiencing discrimination. Prior to that, I could have written what you wrote above.

    Perhaps it is because I live in a southern city where much of what goes on around me is based on race. Perhaps it is because I am more attuned to it. Whatever the reason, I know that we have to respect ourselves in order for others to respect us. And using nigger/nigga - to me - is a lack of respect for what we and others before us had (have) to endure. Nigga/Nigger is a symptom of the larger disease of internalized oppression - and yes, it includes the crab mentality, and the paper bag test and all that other junk.

    — Vivian | @

24. Wolf & MaxPower: That you feel that way is not racist, it’s a recognition of reality and respect for how far we’ve all come. The comment works two ways. First, it’s a sign of personal progress that you’ve recognized that stereotypes shouldn’t define how you view black people. Second, it’s a social sign of progress that you, a white person, can look at a fellow black diner in a Southern restaurant and actually appreciate and desire their presence. And, if you ever go out on a double-date with friends who are black, that’s even better.

    Eric: Great sentiments. Shoot me an email sometimes.

    — Conaway Haskins | @

25. Spell Checker.

    Some thoughts:

    1. I had to google both “crab in a bucket” and “paper bag test.” I previously had no idea about either of these things. I’m not sure if that means I am below average-ly educated or if I am the norm.

    2. Vivian — Unfortunately Richmond, as you well know, is a city that suffers the effects of a thoroughly racist past. In our town, especially in the city limits, if you are black that necessarily means you are poor. Which is terrible and our city’s biggest problem in my opinion. So when I do see well off black people in the city, I do think it is great. Would I think the same thing out in the West End or the South Side? Maybe not.

    3. I think it would be awesome to have some kind of ongoing dialogue of this type somewhere (maybe in person!?). There needs to be a place where white people — especially younger ones who just like Eric (young not black ; ) are a generation removed from a lot of these things — can feel comfortable saying stupid things and learn from them. There is just such a lack of dialogue that, like you said Vivian, “we just don’t know each other well enough.” Maybe something like that exists already?

    — MaxPower | @

26. MaxPower - didn’t realize you are in Richmond. I’m in Norfolk so I understand what you’re saying. Actually, the group I co-founded here, Norfolk United Facing Race, is modeled on one based in Richmond - Hope in the Cities. We have sister groups all over the country. And what the groups do is have conversations on race. There are many groups out there doing dialogue on race relations, both across the races and within.

    — Vivian | @

27. statistics and racism have a tricky relationship.

    anyway, my desire to express encouragement isn’t that i feel that this particular family used to be poor bc they are black or anything about them specifically, but that they are contributing to and are a sign of progress within the black community as a whole (which = progress as a society). perhaps encouragement (even from a white person) would help black people overcome ‘internal oppression’ and the feeling that success is bad.

    — Wolf | @

28. Eric Murphy said… “In fact, I don’t think that most if any blacks in my generation even make a mental connection between the two words. They are not even menatally broken down in the same capacity.”

    so, what’s the problem with white people using nigga? i have trouble believing most black people from your generation would be ok with that. am i wrong?

    — Wolf | @

29. I am white, but I think internal oppression is real and, with poverty, is the biggest problem facing blacks. Has anyone seen the new show: “Black. White.”? It is about a black family and a white family who use make-up to appear to be each other’s race. They live together for six weeks and discuss what it is like to be black or white. It is a cool social experiment, albeit skewed by the need for drama, but it opens a window into how whites and blacks see being white and black. It is on FX, and I highly recommend it.

    I will say this about the people:
    - The white mother is liberal, has hardly spent any time with blacks, knows almost nothing about black culture, but has always “felt such a connection” with it.
    - The black father has felt racism from both sides, as a light-skinned, well-spoken black person, and tends to see “quiet racism” often in day-to-day life.
    - The white father does not believe racism is really all around us, and doesn’t mind saying so. He thinks by maintaining a “positive attitude” blacks can succeed and be treated equally.

    So - the issue of internal oppression saturates the show. The battle between the fathers is intense, especially because each walk in the other’s shoes, more or less. I find this interesting: a child passing on the sidewalk moves over to avoid the two fathers (both appearing ‘black’) and the black father finds this racist, the white father thinks this is normal. As a white person, I’ve wondered this before— if something unusual happens for a black person, how is it viewed? I am treated rudely or don’t get the best service at times, but I find this to be just the way life is, but I can’t help but think many blacks might wonder if their race is the cause. I don’t know the answer.

    Poignant quote from the show; probably true for most whites and blacks:
    White father: “You see what you want to see.”
    Black father: “And you don’t see what you don’t want to see.”

    — Coulie | @

30. that reminds me of this anecdote.

    i was talking to a person who is black about this local resturaunt, and she was like, “yeah it is pretty good, but we [her and husband] don’t like to go there cuz they are kind of racist.” i guess what happened was they went and got bad/unfriendly service, and thought it was cuz they were black.

    anyways, i was like, “actually they treat me like crap too, i think they are just assholes.” (the food is really good, if you are wondering why we would go there or even have conversations about it). so she was like, “oh, maybe we’ll check it out again then.”

    i dont know what the moral of the story is, except maybe that it is better to be an asshole to everyone than it is to be an asshole selectively. also important to have good ice cream.

    — midas | @

31. I mean, the same thing happens in so many contexts to all kinds of people. Here’s a story that David Foster Wallace told in a commencement address:

    “Here’s another didactic little story. There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: “Look, it’s not like I don’t have actual reasons for not believing in God. It’s not like I haven’t ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn’t see a thing, and it was fifty below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out ‘Oh, God, if there is a God, I’m lost in this blizzard, and I’m gonna die if you don’t help me.’” And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. “Well then you must believe now,” he says, “After all, here you are, alive.” The atheist just rolls his eyes. “No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp.” ”

    I mean, that stuff happens all the time. Something happens that could be potentially caused by racism, fate, karma, chance, malice, incompetence, design, the intervention of Satan, or the fact that someone else is just having a really bad day. You tailor your reponse (which could be hate, love, indifference, worship, self-deprecation, heartbreak, fear, or any number of things) more to the cause of the incident more than the incident itself, without considering how certain responses (fear, anger, hate, or even non-acceptance) could hurt you disproportionately even if they are appropriate. And all of these things happen automatically without you even thinking about them, thousands of times per day.

    — RMSzero | @

32. word

    — midas | @

33. see above, but I forgot to mention, the white father also seems to really enjoy saying the word “nigger” which I’ve never said or heard as much in my life (minus dave chappelle and chris rock) as he did on one episode (about four times)… it’s like really weird. he’s made up to be black, in an all-black focus group, and actually uses the word there. it was awkward for everyone.

    “nigger”, spoken by white or black, just makes everyone uncomfortable, but maybe “nigga” is ok if it is between friends and a normal part of your vocabulary?

    — Coulie | @

34. the other part of racism that nobody likes to talk about or make shows about is how much some black people HATE white people. people even try to justify it- well, white people did enslave my great grandfather, so i have a right to hate all white people.

    i was called ‘white trash’ and ‘cracker’ by a black kid in elementary school. 5th grade! i didn’t even really know what those things meant, but the kid was expelled from school (he had previous problems). i was called many names and hated on in middle and high school as well.

    if the tides were turned, racism would be as bad, probably worse of a problem than it is now. that’s just my opinion.

    nobody cares much about this bc A. there’s way less black people than white people and B. white people have much more power so their racism is has more effect. but! black people: hating white people is not going to move us past this racial problem any faster, and it isn’t going to help your community out of it’s many other problems either. i’m not saying to forget your past or your culture or where you came from, i’m just saying to act as though you care about your future and what’s right in the present time.

    i don’t want to start finger-pointing about who’s more racist, but just thought this was a commonly-ignored important piece to the puzzle.

    — Wolf | @

35. dfghjkl;’dfghjkrtyjkldfghjklertyhjklsdfghjksdfghjklasdfghjklasdfghjklasdfghjklasdfghjklsdfghjklsadfghjkl

    — shamaya | @

36. The trailer for Premonition with Bullock looks like a must see in March!

    — mr skin | @